Christmas in July?

[voice of the theater]

SKIP THIS FIRST POST OF THE THREAD IF YOU'RE EASILY BORED!
I just bought a pair of Altec Santana II speakers. I have a home recording studio and I use Model 19's and headphones for mixing and use both ot them as well as Model 14's (and a boom box and car stereo) for reviewing mixes to see if the mixes sound good everywhere I play them. It occurred to me that a lot of people have speakers with tweeters and not horns/compression drivers so I wanted to buy a good pair of Altecs with tweeters to review mixes on. I almost feel guilty about the price I paid for these Santana II's. The lady had originally listed them locally here in Rochester, NY on CL for $195. I was interested, but I wasn't going to rush out and buy them at that price ? partly due to the fact that from her photos you could see that the woofers needed a re-foam (at least). I checked CL several days later and she had changed her ad to read ?Last chance - Vintage Altec Santana II Speakers - $80 (webster, ny)?. That got my attention. I went out to check out the speakers and was expecting the 13 1/2? frame woofers that Model 15's have?Santana II's are supposed to have the same woofer as Model 15's. When I got there, the woofers measured 12? so I pulled them and looked for a part number or model number on them but there was none?just a date code. So I left empty handed, even though the tweeters and crossovers appeared to be/sounded mint. As I was leaving, she mentioned to me that she had several inquiries about the speakers but no one ever showed up for them and that she was ready to put them at the curb. I told her don't put them at the curb, I need to verify if the woofers are correct, and if they were that I could probably give her something for them. I started a thread here later that day about identifying Model 15 woofers?I was afraid to mention Santana II's in Rochester in the thread in case anyone who reads our forum hear (including flippers) might beat me to them. In the thread I included pics and Bowtie confirmed they were early Model 15 woofers?using a stamped 12? frame and not the later 13 1/2? frame. I then called Bill at GPA to get a price on refoaming them and he confirmed that the early Santana II/Model 15 woofers had a stamped 12? frame and used the exact same motor and cone as the later 13 1/2? frame version. Since he assured me the sound quality/working parts of the woofer were identical to the later version, I decided to buy them and went back the next day to haggle with the lady. I told her that the woofers would need to be repaired and I'd have to ship them out of state, and that shipping and repair costs combined were not going to be cheap. She said ?make me an offer? so I said I could give her $20 for them. She then asked for $50 but I reminded her that her ad said ?in working condition? and these were not in working condition. She finally said OK and I left with the speakers. This is the first time I actually felt guilty after haggling for something on CL, but when she had said the day before that she was thinking of putting them to the curb I decided I wasn't going to pay much for these speakers.

Well, long story ?short? (this is short?), I shipped the woofers to Great Plains Audio, and installed them back in the cabs (after using Howards Restore A Finish on the cabs). GPA did a great job on the woofers. I used to own Model 9's which use the same woofer, and they never sounded as clean, full, or powerful (and never got really deep bass) as these do. I'm assuming the Santana II cabs have a lot to do with it?they are considerably larger cabs than the Model 9's and use a more ?modern? tuning than the older design of the Model 9's. Also, the Model 9's always sounded like they had a ?hole? in the midrange. Vocals, etc. were never as prominent as I would like even if I set the midrange pot at maximum (they were a three way system). Santana II's use the same woofer and tweeter as Model 9's, the main difference is that the Model 9's have a midrange driver and a different crossover (older design), and a smaller cabinet. For whatever reason, these Santana II's blow away my old Model 9's. The midrange is loud and clear and in your face (no ?hole? in the midrange like the Model 9's), and the bass is much deeper and more clean and powerful than the model 9's ever were. Even the high end sounds crisper/clearer?possibly the newer crossover that the Santana II uses has H.F. Compensation whereas I'm pretty sure the old style crossover in the Model 9 did not. Anyone have any experience with Model 9 vs. Santana II and have any input as to did they like the Santana II's better and if so, what about the design makes them ?better?? I know a lot of people prefer the original Santana, but I'm leery of buying a woofer (bi-flex) that can't be re-coned (nobody has or makes recone kits for those) and I'm also skeptical about that tiny CTS tweeter in the original Santana. The 5? frame tweeter in the Santana II sounds great (I know it's a CTS, not the greatest company, but it is the best CTS tweeter that Altec used as far as I know?better than the model 7, 5, 3, or Model 1 CTS tweeter). I always liked the high end that my Model 9's got?and these Santana II's with the more modern crossover get even better h.f. Response (to my ear)...... Here are some pics of my latest speakers. The drivers and crossovers are now mint, and as you can see, the cabs are almost perfect. The grills have some ?cat pulls?--I may buy new grill cloth eventually?you can't cut off the cat pulls with scissors, can you? BTW, to give you an idea of the size of these things, the TV in the pic is a 50?. I feel good that, with some important help from GPA (and Howard's restor a finish) I've brought a pair of classic Altecs ?back to life?. Eventually, I'll recap the crossovers and clean the crossover pots......

[voice of the theater]

QUESTIONS, QUESTIONS, QUESTIONS

After listening to the Santana II speakers for a couple of days, I've determined (not surprisingly) that they need different EQ settings than the Model 19's or 14's. I can actually use almost identical bass EQ that I use for the 19's and the Santana II's sound phenomenal, but I do need to add more treble to the Santana II's to get them to sound the way I like them. I've already used them to listen to/review some of the mixes I've done in my home recording studio and I'm happy with the different perspective they give me on the recordings. Just for the "heck” of it, I turned them on at the same time as the Model 19's to hear how they sound being played at the same time. I was really surprised with the results. The Model 19's sound noticeably better if I play them and the Santana II's together at the same time compared to just playing the Model 19's alone. Even though the 19's are more efficient, when I use the Speakers A/B switch and click on the Santana II's, the 19's immediately sound more full bodied (for lack of a better term). The high end is barely effected, but the mids sound more full and the bass sounds a lot more deep and powerful. At first I thought it was the old saying that louder will often sound better (if it's clean). But even if I turn up the 19's louder on their own, and then compare it to turning the volume down and playing them at the same time with the Santana II's at a lower volume setting, the two pair of speakers playing at the same time sounds noticeably better/fuller than the 19's alone at any volume setting. I'm trying to figure out why—and I'm sure there are people here who already know how this could be. I originally assumed that since the 19's are overall better sounding speakers, and that adding the Santana II's to them would make the overall sound worse. But, quite the opposite is true IMHO. I'm wondering:
1) Is it because my amp sounds better with a 4 ohm load than an 8 ohm load (which I doubt would explain the significant improvement I'm hearing).
2) Could it be that the Santana II's excel at the 19's weaker points. (seems more likely to me as a guess). I can't hear a deficiency, but I've read that a weak point of the 19's is the midrange at 1200 hz and just below because the woofer ideally shouldn't have to cover frequencies that high. So maybe the Santana II's excell in that range of frequencies, and are filling in or enhancing that frequency range (say, 800-1200 hz for example)? The mids do sound noticeably improved when I play the Santana II's with the Model 19's compared to the Model 19's alone. Also, could the Santana II's be better at certain bass or mid bass frequencies than the 19's—could that be why the bass sounds more full and powerful with both pair of speakers playing at the same time compared to the 19's alone?
3) Or could it just be room acoustics? The upside down Santana's woofer/bass reflecting off of the ceiling is now combined with the 19's woofer/bass reflecting off of the floor giving me a bigger “wall of sound”? I wish you guys could hear this difference. My $20 pair of speakers make my 19's sound significantly better—especially bass and mids! When I bought my first pair of Model 19's they immediately became my gold standard as far as speaker sound quality. But, the 19's combined with the Santana II's are without a doubt the best sounding speaker/stereo system I've ever heard—the sound of the 19's and Santana II's playing at the same time sounds that good to me. Anyone care to chime in as to what could be a reason for this?

P.S. I've set up the Santana II's upside down on top of the Model 19's. I learned here that if you have two pair of Model 19's for example, that is the “correct” way to set them up—the pair on top “should” be upside down. Is the same setup “correct” or preferable for the Santana II's on top of the Model 19's? Why is this setup recommended? Is it so that you have a “wedge of treble” in the middle with bass below and above it—better overall point source? Or is it because the bottom speaker's woofer will reflect off the floor – enhancing it's sound and the top speaker's woofer will (when it's upside down) reflect off of the ceiling also enhancing it's sound? Or is it because this setup keeps the tweeter (or horn) for the upper speaker closer to ear level? Or none of the above? Am I just as well served tipping the Santana II right side up and propping up the back of it so the tweeter is “aimed” down to ear level?

[cradeldorf]

Nice save Vott. : )

[Old Guy]

The Santana II sounds excellent, just be careful, the tweet pops easily if you like it loud....

[voice of the theater]

Nice save Vott. : )

Thanks--although not my intention at the time, now I really do feel like this was also a rescue mission. My wife and I "rescued" a (dog pound) dog a couple of years ago and we love the fact that our dog didn't get "put to sleep" thanks to us. I shudder to think what may have happened to these Santana II's if a non-Altec fan bought them, not knowing that GPA could save the woofers, and tossed the woofers/replaced them with some 12" Radio Shacks. Or even worse yet, if the seller had put them to the curb and let the rain and elements ruin the drivers, crossovers, and cabs......

The Santana II sounds excellent, just be careful, the tweet pops easily if you like it loud....

Yeah, they really are great sounding speakers. I think Altec was at the top of their game as far as home hi-fi speakers systems in the later 70's and early 80's. The cabinet tuning for speaker systems like the Model 14, 15, 17, and 19, Santana II, etc. really allowed for full deep bass--a lot different tuning than the older style Altecs from the early 70's and before (of course owners of those older systems can change the tuning by adjusting port size etc.). Not to mention, the crossovers of the later 70's and early 80's were some of their best too IMHO--the design and h.f. compensation etc. really brought out the most from their speaker systems. Thanks for the warning about volume too. The first day after I got the woofers back from GPA I cranked them up considerably louder than I usually listen to them just to make sure everything was working properly. Fortunately, they're not in a particularly large room and don't need a lot of power to sound very loud and even cranked that loud sounded amazing (and didn't blow). So, if they survived my initial "testing" that first day I cranked them up extra loud, they'll be fine in my day to day listening which is sometimes pretty loud, but not as loud as I cranked them that first day to "test drive" them.....

Yup if your boosting the HF's with EQ, as OG noted, your risking the tweeters in the Santana's.The weak point in that model IMO.The tweeters sound pretty nice, they just don't like lots of power... Nice pickup !

Thanks AB--I really do feel like it's Christmas in July. BTW, it was thanks to your recommendation from a previous thread that I used Howards Restor-A-Finish on these cabs (first time I've ever tried it). When I bought them, I could tell that the cabs had no scratches, but the finish was dull and faded looking. So, while the woofers were being shipped to GPA, I went down to Home Depot and bought a can of Howards and was amazed at how it restored these cabs. They really look like new -- the grain is highlighted again/color is rich again and they have a nice luster to them as well. I was so impressed with the results, I used it on my Model 14's which were still in nice shape but slightly dull looking. They look like new now too. The more recent pair of Model 19's that I bought (in my recording studio) look like the seller oiled them (or maybe used Howards?--they look like new) so I'm leaving them alone, but the first pair of 19's that I bought that are in my rec. room (the pair in the photo with the Santana II's on top), are looking slightly dull and dry so sometime this summer I'm going to use the Howards on them as well.

BTW, does anyone have any answers to some of the questions I asked in my first two posts of this thread?

[Altec Best]

Thanks AB--I really do feel like it's Christmas in July. BTW, it was thanks to your recommendation from a previous thread that I used Howards Restor-A-Finish on these cabs (first time I've ever tried it). When I bought them, I could tell that the cabs had no scratches, but the finish was dull and faded looking. So, while the woofers were being shipped to GPA, I went down to Home Depot and bought a can of Howards and was amazed at how it restored these cabs. They really look like new -- the grain is highlighted again/color is rich again and they have a nice luster to them as well. I was so impressed with the results, I used it on my Model 14's which were still in nice shape but slightly dull looking. They look like new now too. The more recent pair of Model 19's that I bought (in my recording studio) look like the seller oiled them (or maybe used Howards?--they look like new) so I'm leaving them alone, but the first pair of 19's that I bought that are in my rec. room (the pair in the photo with the Santana II's on top), are looking slightly dull and dry so sometime this summer I'm going to use the Howards on them as well.

Don't forget the Howards Feed-N-Wax to keep them looking new !

[voice of the theater]

Don't forget the Howards Feed-N-Wax to keep them looking new !

I've never tried that stuff--what does it do and how do you use it?

BTW, does anyone have any answers to some of the questions I asked in my first two posts of this thread?

[Altec Best]

Yup if your boosting the HF's with EQ, as OG noted, your risking the tweeters in the Santana's.The weak point in that model IMO.The tweeters sound pretty nice, they just don't like lots of power... Nice pickup !

[Altec Best]

Those cabs really came out nice Dave !!!